Full transcript of
On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Weijia Jiang:
- Kevin Hassett, Nationwide Financial Council director
- Rep. Tom Suozzi, Democrat of New York
- Director Ken Burns
Click on right here to browse full transcripts from 2025 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
WEIJIA JIANG: I am Weijia Jiang in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: President Trump will get an enormous Independence Day win, as his One Large Lovely Invoice is signed into legislation.
And devastating flash floods kill dozens in Texas. Tragedy this vacation weekend, as flash floods sweep by way of elements of Texas, killing a minimum of 50, together with 15 youngsters, a few of whom have been at summer season camp. We could have the newest.
Then: After an extended week lobbying for votes and chopping offers together with his fellow Republicans, the president spent the Fourth of July celebrating the nation’s 249th birthday by enacting his signature tax minimize and spending plan.
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DONALD TRUMP (President of america): It is actually guarantees made, guarantees stored, and now we have stored them.
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WEIJIA JIANG: However Democrats and even some Republicans are usually not proud of the invoice’s projected debt and deficit will increase, cuts to Medicaid and different provisions.
We’ll speak with the top of the White Home Financial Council, Kevin Hassett, and New York centrist Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi about his get together’s plan to construct on voter apprehension in regards to the new legislation.
Lastly, CBS Night Information co-anchor John Dickerson talks to filmmaker and historian Ken Burns about his new mission, as America strikes in direction of marking our 250th yr.
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KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): The American Revolution is an important occasion for the reason that delivery of Christ in all of world historical past.
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WEIJIA JIANG: He’ll clarify why the teachings discovered by our forefathers nonetheless apply in the present day.
It is all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is out in the present day. I am Weijia Jiang.
We now have received loads to get to, however we do need to start with the unfolding catastrophe in Texas, the place officers say a minimum of 50 persons are useless and dozens are lacking after devastating flash floods.
CBS Information correspondent Jason Allen experiences from Kerrville, Texas.
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JASON ALLEN (voice-over): Greater than 1,300 state and native emergency responders are nonetheless desperately looking out the banks of the Guadalupe River this morning, marking automobiles and houses, choosing by way of piles of particles, looking for survivors of a historic and lethal flash flood.
The deluge that started early Friday morning precipitated the often tranquil river to rise 26 toes in solely 45 minutes.
MAN: We’re at Camp Mystic searching for – for our youngsters.
JASON ALLEN: A lot of the main focus is on this summer season camp, the place greater than two dozen third and fourth grade ladies are nonetheless lacking. Their mother and father are desperately looking out.
MAN: After which we’re searching for locations that they’ll doubtlessly be alive. There’s over 20 of them nonetheless on the market.
JASON ALLEN: Kerr County doesn’t have an out of doors warning system. That is sometimes the sirens which are used to alert folks to tornadoes or different robust storms.
Homeland Safety Secretary Kristi Noem, who has been part of discussions about altering the federal authorities’s position in responding to main disasters, stated that the climate alert system must be up to date to present folks extra time and extra warning forward of utmost climate.
KRISTI NOEM (U.S. Homeland Safety Secretary): The Nationwide Climate Service has indicated that, with that and NOAA, that we wanted to resume this historical system that has been left in place with the federal authorities for a lot of, a few years. And that’s the reforms which are ongoing.
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JASON ALLEN: Texas Governor Greg Abbott has now signed an expanded catastrophe declaration order. You may see there’s a little little bit of rain right here within the space this morning, but it surely’s not anticipated to be something like we noticed the previous couple of days, Weijia.
And though officers say that that is nonetheless an energetic rescue mission, they acknowledge that, because the hours go by, it turns into much less and fewer doubtless that they may discover anybody alive.
WEIJIA JIANG: Our hearts are with all these households.
Jason Allen in Kerrville, Texas, thanks.
We flip now to Kevin Hassett. He’s the director of the Nationwide Financial Council and one in every of President Trump’s prime advisers. He is additionally extremely popular on that driveway, the place I am often alongside a few dozen reporters.
So, Kevin, thanks a lot on your time this morning.
I need to begin with commerce, as a result of there is a huge deadline arising on Wednesday, as . That 90-day pause on reciprocal tariffs that the president introduced again in April is ready to finish. Up to now, the U.S. has introduced a couple of offers, the U.Okay., Vietnam, and also you’re inching nearer to a ultimate settlement with China.
Do you count on to get any extra offers completed with America’s greatest buying and selling companions by Wednesday?
KEVIN HASSETT (Director, Nationwide Financial Council): Sure.
First, I do must take a pause and share your ideas and prayers with the folks of Texas. It is an unimaginable, heartbreaking story. And Kristi Noem and the president have instructed the federal authorities to throw the whole lot they’ve at serving to the survivors and serving to clear up that place.
And so, anyway, I am actually heartbroken in the present day to see these tales. And I would like you to know that, within the White Home, everyone is placing each effort they’ll into serving to the folks of Texas in the present day.
On commerce, there’s going to be fairly a bit of stories this week. And I believe the headline of the information is that there are going to be offers which are finalized. There are a complete quantity that Jamieson Greer has negotiated with overseas governments. After which there are going to be letters which are despatched to international locations saying, this is how we predict it must go as a result of the offers aren’t superior sufficient.
And the headline goes to be that international locations are agreeing world wide to open their markets as much as our merchandise and to permit us to place some sort of tariff on their merchandise after they come into the U.S. And precisely what the numbers might be might be issues that you will discover out within the information this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: And, Kevin, you stated there are going to be offers.
For these actually essential buying and selling companions, if there’s not a deal by Wednesday, is the president going to increase this pause?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: You already know, america is all the time prepared to speak to everyone about the whole lot that is occurring on this planet. And there are deadlines and there are issues which are shut. And so perhaps issues will push again the useless – previous the deadline, or perhaps they will not.
Ultimately, the president goes to make that judgment.
WEIJIA JIANG: And also you additionally talked about these letters that can begin going out tomorrow, in response to President Trump. He stated about 10 to 12 international locations will obtain them.
Do you – are you able to inform us who’s going to get one and what they are saying?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I am sorry, I can not, as a result of – as a result of, once more, the a part of the letter that could possibly be occurring, proper, is that we’re near a deal, we’re not likely glad with the progress that we’re making within the deal, and so we’re saying, OK, wonderful we will ship a letter, however perhaps you get a deal on the final minute too.
Till we see the whole lot that performs out, I believe that we have to simply maintain our fireplace and look ahead to the information this week.
WEIJIA JIANG: Is it honest to say that these notices are going to go to our smaller buying and selling companions, as you negotiate with our larger ones?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: I believe that it could possibly be that it will be each.
But in addition remember that, when now we have nice commerce offers, our smaller buying and selling companions might turn into a lot larger buying and selling companions. And that is, I believe, one of many the explanation why international locations are racing to set offers up with us forward of the deadline.
WEIJIA JIANG: I’ve to ask you in regards to the deadlines, Kevin, to make these offers, since you simply talked about you are all the time open. The president stated there’s not likely any flexibility left between now and Wednesday.
Lower than two weeks in the past, the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, stated that offers can be wrapped up by Labor Day. So I ponder if – how can firms plan if the goalposts maintain shifting? How can international locations negotiate if they do not even understand how a lot time they’ve left?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Proper.
Nicely, the tough outlines of the offers have gotten clear to everyone, as a result of now we have some offers, just like the U.Okay. and the Vietnam deal, which are beginning to be, I suppose, tips for what would possibly occur.
However one of many issues that we’re seeing that is actually fascinating to me is that persons are simply onshoring manufacturing to the U.S. at a file fee. And so now we have had file job creation, file capital spending. And that is even forward of the Large Lovely Invoice. And so I believe what’s occurring is that persons are responding to President Trump’s potential threats to have excessive tariffs on international locations by shifting their exercise right here into the U.S., which is creating jobs, greater than two million jobs since he took workplace, and elevating wages.
You already know, wage development is heading up in direction of the actually, actually excessive pinnacles that we noticed in 2017. And so I believe there is a race proper now to get exercise into the U.S. And, partially, that race has been kicked off by President Trump.
WEIJIA JIANG: I keep in mind, after these reciprocal tariffs have been introduced, you advised me that there are about 15 offers that international locations have been bringing to the president.
How shut – in case you might give us any quantity in any respect, what quantity are we going to see this week?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Sure, you’ll have – you’ll have to get that from Jamieson and the president. I believe that now we have seen a lot of offers which have been finalized by negotiators, after which the president finds issues that may make them higher.
And so it is – I am not going to get forward of the president on the variety of offers.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK, thanks, Kevin. We’ll look out for that.
I need to transfer now to the One Large Lovely Invoice that…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Sure.
WEIJIA JIANG: … after all, the president signed into legislation on Independence Day.
You’ve it, and now it’s important to pay for it. And there is a consensus that this invoice provides tremendously to the deficit. I do know that you’re so aware of these numbers. The Yale Finances Lab estimates it’ll add $3 trillion to the debt. The Tax Basis says this tax portion of the invoice might additionally add $3 trillion to the deficit.
The Committee for a Accountable Federal Finances, which elements an curiosity on the debt, says it might add as much as $5 trillion over the following decade. And on this very program, even Speaker Johnson answered within the affirmative when requested if this invoice would add over $4 trillion to the deficit.
I do know that the administration says the invoice will truly shrink the deficit by $1.5 trillion. Assist me perceive…
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Positive.
WEIJIA JIANG: … why there’s such a drastic distinction between your numbers and all these others.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Nicely – nicely, to start with, let’s keep in mind that science will not be democracy. Reality will not be democracy.
Our estimates are primarily based on modeling that we used final time after I was chairman of the Council of Financial Advisers to say what would occur if we had a invoice, how a lot development we might get. And we stated – and we have been criticized soundly – that we might get 3 % development.
And we even had the actually technical macroeconomic fashions that stated that we might get 3 % development. We run the identical fashions by way of this tax invoice, it is even higher. And what we’re seeing is that, in case you get 3 % development once more, then that is $4 trillion extra in income than the CBO and these different our bodies are giving us credit score for.
They’ve been incorrect up to now, and so they’re being incorrect once more, in our perception. However the factor that disappoints me is that, if I put out a mannequin and I say, hey, this is what is going on to occur, we will get 3 % development, after which it seems it is 1.5 % development, then, as a tutorial economist, as a scientist, then it is my obligation to say, what did I get incorrect? What did my mannequin miss?
These folks aren’t doing that. And that is the factor that I discover disappointing, as a result of we put peer-reviewed tutorial stuff on the desk and stated, we will get that 3 % development, after which we received it proper final time. And we consider we will get it proper this time.
However in case you suppose that 1.8 % development is what is going on to occur over the following 10 years, then you must agree with the CBO quantity. However there’s one other a part of the CBO quantity that you’ll want to fear about. And that’s that, if we do not cross the invoice, then it is the largest tax hike in historical past.
And with that huge tax hike, then, after all, we might have a recession. The CEA says that we might have a few 4 % drop in GDP and lose 9 million jobs. If we had a 4 % drop in GDP and we misplaced 9 billion jobs, what would occur to the deficit?
And so I do not suppose that the CBO has a really robust file. I do not suppose these locations have a really robust file. And what they should do is get again to the fundamentals of taking a look at macroeconomic fashions. There is a actually well-known macroeconomist in Harvard named Jim Inventory. They need to return and browse the whole lot Jim Inventory has written for the final 15 years and fold these into their fashions, after which perhaps we might speak.
WEIJIA JIANG: I need to speak to you, Kevin, about one other quantity that I do know you and the president disagree with, however that Democrats and lots of Republicans are apprehensive about.
And that is the CBO’s projection that as many as 12 million People might lose Medicaid protection due to this legislation. What’s the NEC’s estimate for a way many individuals might lose protection?
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Nicely, sure, let’s unbundle that just a little bit, as a result of, first, on the CBO protection, so what are we doing?
So what we’re doing is, we’re asking for a piece requirement, however the work requirement is that you’ll want to be searching for work and even doing volunteer work, and also you need not do it till your youngsters are 14 or older. And so the concept that that is going to trigger an enormous hemorrhaging in availability of insurance coverage does not make numerous sense to us.
After which, in case you take a look at the CBO numbers, in case you take a look at the large numbers they are saying that persons are going to lose insurance coverage, about 5 million of these are individuals who produce other insurance coverage. There are individuals who have two kinds of insurance coverage. And so, due to this fact, in the event that they lose one, they’re nonetheless insured.
And so the CBO numbers on that aspect do not make any sense to us in any respect, however, on the opposite aspect, return to 2017, once we had work necessities for Obamacare, and so they stated that we might lose about 4 million insured between 2017 and 2019, and about double that over the following 10 years. And, the truth is, the variety of insured went up, went up fairly a bit, by greater than 10 million, over these two years, as a result of the underside line is, one of the simplest ways to get insurance coverage is to get a job.
And now we have received a Large Lovely Invoice that is going to create numerous job creation and numerous insurance coverage. And the CBO is simply not accounting for that.
And, once more, they want to return and take a look at all of the issues that they received incorrect. You understand that they are underestimating Medicaid spending by 20 %. They need to look again in any respect the issues they received incorrect and clarify what they’ll do to get it proper sooner or later and to do a greater job. And in the event that they try this, we are going to take them extra critically.
However, proper now, I do not suppose any critical thinker might take them critically, as a result of they’ve completed so incorrect – been so incorrect for thus lengthy. Even again – in case you return to when President Obama handed Obamacare, they received each single quantity there incorrect about how many individuals would get non-public insurance coverage and the way few folks would get Medicaid and so forth.
And so their file on this modeling area is about as dangerous because it’s potential to be. In reality, you could possibly sort of roll the roulette wheel and give you a greater set of numbers, a greater historical past, observe file historical past, than CBO.
WEIJIA JIANG: Nicely, Kevin, what in regards to the enhanced subsidies? Is that quantity incorrect too, that the ACA permits about $705 for folks to assist pay for his or her medical health insurance?
That does not sound just like the waste, fraud and abuse that I do know you and the president have talked about eliminating. That simply appears like individuals who can not afford protection, and now it is going to be much more so with these subsidies gone.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Proper. Nicely – nicely, what – what – in case you’re – in case you’re wanting on the – the change within the tax on the suppliers, which is one thing that has been a key speaking level for the Democrats, they are saying that that is going to shut down rural hospitals, what has occurred is that, relatively than let the states – the states have this sport the place they provide a greenback to a hospital, after which the federal authorities matches the greenback, after which the state taxes a few of the greenback away.
In different phrases, that now we have an settlement with the states that they’ll match, however then they’ve this trick the place they tax the hospitals after they provide them cash, so actually it is the federal authorities giving them cash. And that is why now we have been overspending Medicaid by 20 % since this trick began occurring.
And so what now we have completed is that now we have put a haircut on that, however now we have additionally put $50 billion right into a belief fund to be sure that the agricultural hospitals are there to deal with the sick.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And so I believe this can be a prudent reform. It is sound budgetary politics, and I believe that no one’s going to lose their insurance coverage.
WEIJIA JIANG: Kevin Hassett, we are going to watch for a way that ages.
Thanks very a lot. Actually recognize your time.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: And if I get it incorrect, we are going to examine and we are going to speak about why I received it incorrect, I promise.
WEIJIA JIANG: OK.
Thanks. We could have you again. Thanks very a lot, Kevin.
DIRECTOR KEVIN HASSETT: Thanks, Weijia Jiang.
We now flip to Congressman – Face the Nation might be again in a single minute. Stick with us.
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WEIJIA JIANG: We flip now to New York Democratic Congressman Tom Suozzi.
Congressman, thanks a lot on your time this morning.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI (D-New York): Sure, thanks a lot for having me.
WEIJIA JIANG: Nicely, you simply heard from Kevin Hassett.
You already know, like President Trump, he stated, with out this invoice, it will be one of many best tax hikes for the American public. They are saying it’s the best tax minimize in American historical past.
You sit on the Methods and Means Committee, so I’ve to marvel the way you describe it.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: I describe it as the large, ugly invoice, not the Large Lovely Invoice.
It will do numerous issues which are going to harm lots of people in our nation. The most important one, which you talked about with Mr. Hassett, is improve the deficit enormously within the nation. And what that does is, that creates inflation, that retains rates of interest excessive, that makes it laborious for folks to purchase properties, makes it laborious for them to borrow cash to do the issues that they need to do.
As well as, it is going to knock a bunch of individuals off of well being care. We all know that the Republicans have tried for a decade to undo the Reasonably priced Care Act, Obamacare, and that is sort of a backdoor option to take medical health insurance away from folks that basically want it probably the most right here in our nation.
And it is going to trigger medical health insurance prices to go up for lots of people. One of many president’s greatest points he campaigned on was decreasing costs quickly. On day one, we will minimize the prices.
Nicely, prices are usually not taking place. Inflation – inflation goes to be affected by this deficit. Rates of interest are going to remain excessive, and that is going to have a unfavourable influence on medical health insurance prices for many individuals in our nation.
WEIJIA JIANG: I do know that you just simply introduced up Medicaid and potential lack of protection. What do you say to some People who would possibly marvel, nicely, why ought to the able-bodied not must work so as to entry Medicaid?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Nicely, it’s important to perceive that 92 % of the folks which are capable of work are at the moment working, and the 8 % that aren’t are sometimes folks which are taking good care of disabled youngsters.
Do not forget that two-thirds of the folks in nursing properties are on Medicaid. One-tenth of all of the veterans in america of America are on Medicaid. Medicaid is a lifeline for thus many individuals which are dealing with such tough circumstances that we won’t even presumably think about.
And why would we be taking medical health insurance and meals advantages away from a few of the most needy People, whereas we’re offering what I consider is an pointless tax break for a few of the wealthiest People? It simply does not make sense that you just’re decreasing taxes for a few of the wealthiest folks, hurting a few of the lowest-income folks, whereas blowing the largest deficit within the funds that we have had within the historical past of the nation.
These issues simply do not add up.
WEIJIA JIANG: Nicely, simply final week, you stated you agree with 75 % of what is on this bundle. That is a fairly important quantity. So why is not it well worth the 25 % that you do not like?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: As a result of these issues that I simply talked about are so devastating.
I like the concept that we’re investing more cash to safe the border. I like the concept that we’re paying – offering tax breaks to lower-income people and hardworking center class people and other people aspiring to the center class.
I like the concept of offering tax breaks for these people. However why are we offering – and when the economic system is doing in addition to it has been over the previous a number of years, why would we be offering a tax lower, tax breaks for a few of the wealthiest People in our nation, whereas blowing an enormous gap within the deficit?
WEIJIA JIANG: Congressman, I need to flip to an op-ed that you just wrote in “The Wall Avenue Journal” final week saying Zohran Mamdani’s win within the New York Metropolis’s Democratic mayoral major ought to be a – quote – “loud wakeup name for Democrats.”
What classes do you suppose your get together can be taught from – from his marketing campaign?
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: Nicely, , I disagree with Mr. Mamdani. I’ve to make that very clear that, , I am a Democratic capitalist. I am not a Democratic socialist.
And – however it’s important to acknowledge that he tapped into one thing. He tapped into the identical factor that Donald Trump tapped into, which is that persons are involved that the economic system will not be working for them. Affordability and the economic system is the primary subject within the nation.
And, too typically, Democrats are usually not perceived as being centered on affordability and the economic system and the center class, and other people aspiring to the center class and their financial issues. They see Democrats as being primarily centered on reproductive rights and on LGBT protections, that are essential points, however they are not the problems that folks take into consideration each night time after they’re mendacity in mattress eager about paying their payments or after they’re speaking about how they’ll ship their youngsters to highschool.
So Democrats have gotten to do a greater job studying from each Trump and Mamdani, not with their options, which I believe are incorrect, however with the analysis of the issue, that we’re annoyed, we’re involved. Everyone in America, whether or not you are a right-wing conservative or a left-wing progressive, ought to consider that, in return for working laborious, you make sufficient cash so you may stay a very good life.
You should purchase a house, you may educate your youngsters, you may pay on your medical health insurance, you may retire at some point with out being scared. Individuals do not feel that at the moment, and now we have to do a greater job of speaking that.
WEIJIA JIANG: Nicely, I am glad you introduced up the notion, since you additionally wrote that Democrats should acknowledge the long run begins with a message of financial safety for American households.
I coated the Biden marketing campaign. I coated the Harris marketing campaign. That was the middle of their messages. So what’s the issue right here? Is it the messenger? Is it the messaging? As a result of they’ve that message already.
REPRESENTATIVE TOM SUOZZI: It is a mixture.
Primary, the Democratic Social gathering as a complete has to have this platform that focuses on what the folks care about. They care in regards to the economic system. They care about immigration. They care about taxes. They care about crime. They care about well being care.
However then now we have to acknowledge that the media infrastructure is fractured. And Trump figured it out earlier than the Democrats have, which is that it is not simply conventional media, like your reveals and newspapers, but it surely’s social media. It is podcasts.
Podcasts, the highest 500 podcasts in America, 400 of the highest 500 are right- leaning, 100 are left-leaning, and of the 100 left-leaning ones, half of them beat the you-know what out of the Democrats. Then you’ve got different nationwide media, after which you’ve got a few of this ethnic and underground media associated to WeChat and WhatsApp and several types of apps that folks use.
So now we have to speak throughout all these platforms, as a result of persons are getting their messages in these fractured environments and dwelling in these echo chambers. And now we have to do a greater job speaking throughout all these platforms and getting Democrats as a complete to give attention to the economic system, immigration, et cetera.
WEIJIA JIANG: All proper, Congressman, we’re all making an attempt to be taught all these new languages. Thanks a lot on your time this morning.
And we’ll be proper again with much more Face the Nation. Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: Should you’re searching for extra Face the Nation, together with prolonged interviews and particular content material, you may go to our YouTube web page or subscribe to our podcast. It is obtainable on all platforms, together with Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon.
We might be proper again.
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WEIJIA JIANG: We might be proper again with an interview with documentary filmmaker Ken Burns on the American Revolution.
Stick with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
WEIJIA JIANG: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
A day forward of America’s 249th birthday, “CBS EVENING NEWS” co-anchor John Dickerson met up with filmmaker and historian Ken Burns at Monticello, Virginia, the house of our third president, Thomas Jefferson. Burns has a brand new movie out this November on PBS entitled “The American Revolution,” and he gave us a preview.
(BEGIN VC)
JOHN DICKERSON: You name the – the revolutionary interval a civil battle.
KEN BURNS (Documentary Filmmaker): It’s.
JOHN DICKERSON: Was that all the time your conception of the –
KEN BURNS: No.
JOHN DICKERSON: How did you come to think about it that approach?
KEN BURNS: I believe as a result of there is no images and there is no information reels and so they’re in, , stockings and breaches and powdered wigs there is a sense of distance from them. I believe we are also so proud, rightfully, of the facility of the large concepts that we – we simply do not need to get into the truth that it was this bloody civil battle, patriots in opposition to loyalists, disaffected folks, native folks, enslaved and free folks inside it, overseas powers which are in – finally engaged on this. This can be a huge world battle by the top.
I believe we – we – we maybe are fearful that these huge concepts are diminished and so they’re not in any approach. They’re, the truth is, turn into much more inspiring, that they emerge from the turmoil.
JOHN DICKERSON: How ought to we take into consideration the Declaration of Independence this era in America in our current day?
KEN BURNS: To start with, I believe the American Revolution is an important occasion for the reason that delivery of Christ in all of world historical past.
JOHN DICKERSON: Why?
KEN BURNS: I imply it turned the world the other way up, which is the cliche. Earlier than this second, everybody was a topic. Primarily below the rule of any individual else. We had created on this second a really brand-new factor known as a citizen. And this has had highly effective results. It will set in movement revolutions for the following two plus centuries all world wide, all trying to kind of give a brand new expression to this concept that every one males are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with sure unalienable rights. And that is an enormous, huge deal in world historical past.
So, what occurs right here is I suppose you could possibly, , miss the purpose and say it is a quarterfinal between Englishmen, however it’s the starting of one thing completely new on this planet. And – and that’s one thing to rejoice. And to know, too, that it comes out of a lot division that is occurring between the states. Individuals in New Hampshire and Georgia are – they’re – they’re from totally different international locations. They consider various things, that you could possibly have the divisions of – of loyalists and patriots, you could possibly have this – all of the – the issues which are rolling in these colonies and perceive that out of that we might nonetheless work out a option to come collectively.
JOHN DICKERSON: People suppose they’re fairly divided proper now. They weren’t practically as divided as they have been through the revolutionary interval.
KEN BURNS: Right here is the straightforward factor. We’re all the time divided. So, it – it ebbs and flows just a little bit, however we’re all the time have huge variations.
You already know, Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal will not be met with common approval. The Civil Battle kills 750,000 People we predict over the difficulty of slavery. We now have our personal revolution. There are lot of intervals. The Vietnam interval, once we’re so notably divided.
So, I believe there’s just a little little bit of rooster little, , oh, the sky is falling as a result of now issues are all the time worse now than they ever have been. The one – the rationale why historians, and God is aware of I am an novice historian, really feel a sort of optimism is as a result of there’s one thing acquainted. There’s, , the Bible says there’s nothing new below the solar, human nature primarily does not change, and that is true.
What’s nice in regards to the revolution is, for a second issues truly – there was one thing new on this planet. And that is the factor that we have to use. That is the leverage now we have to convey us again to the power to talk to 1 one other, to know the way you remedy your variations, versus the kind of soup of anger and – and mistrust that gave the impression to be, , in all places now.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s a citizen’s obligation now?
KEN BURNS: A citizen’s obligation now is similar because it’s ever been. And that is an important factor. There is a great phrase, just a little bit later from the well-known phrases, the place Jefferson says, “all expertise has proven that mankind are extra disposed to undergo whereas evils are sufferable.” Which means, all of us sort of have gravitated to be below authoritarian rule. You already know, the trains operating on time, or we get a minimum of this. However we will require of you to be a citizen one thing extra. It is received to be energetic.
The pursuit of happiness will not be the acquisition of issues in a market of objects, however lifelong studying in a market of concepts. That is what the founders stated. To be virtuous, to stay a virtuous life, to repeatedly educate your self is what was required to maintain this republic. And I believe that is what we have gotten away from. All the pieces is kind of all individualized. We’re all free brokers. We do not understand that freedom, the factor that we tout, is not only what I would like, but additionally that is intention with what we want.
And I believe what occurs is that once we research these phrases, we will return to the sense of newness and freshness that they represented and rededicate ourselves. And meaning me, for me, and also you for you, to this concept that the pursuit of happiness is about lifelong studying. It is about turning into ever extra educated to the duty of citizenship. And that is an enormous, large duty. Not simply to take your feed, not simply to drift, not simply to get your data that – that kind of ratifies what you already thought, however to really discover what my neighbor thinks.
JOHN DICKERSON: Being an American, as Jefferson noticed it, because the founders noticed it, was a seamless obligation to interact with its historical past.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper. And – and that is actually essential, so as to kind the federal government, they needed to attain again by way of the center ages, by way of the darkish ages, again to antiquity, to convey up these concepts like advantage and temperance and moderation and the entire issues that every one of them have been searching for.
I imply, the superb issues is, we’re right here at Thomas Jefferson’s home, however we do not have a rustic with out his phrases, but additionally we do not have a rustic with out George Washington. And but we learn about all of those males. They’re deeply flawed, in lots of essential methods. And I believe in the present day, in our binary tradition, , the place the whole lot’s a one or a zero, or it is a purple state or a blue state, it is my approach or the freeway, we have forgotten that it is potential to tolerate, as we do amongst – with the folks we love, their strengths and their weaknesses.
So, heroism will not be perfection if we will take an historic view that allows us to see a Jefferson and a Washington in – in these very difficult understanding of them, then it is potential to then breathe, to have some room to know who we are actually, who we have been then, and the place we is perhaps, which is, after all, an important factor. All of the nervousness about this current second is absolutely not a lot in regards to the current second, however about, will we survive.
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you able to speak in regards to the genius and brilliance of his phrases with out sitting proper within the center Jefferson’s proudly owning of slaves, enslaved folks?
KEN BURNS: No. I believe that is the essential factor. And one way or the other we have – we have gotten to the concept that you simply do not need to mess with the great things and let’s simply fake – pay no consideration to that man behind the – you may’t try this. A superb story is an efficient story is an efficient story. And this can be a actually good a part of the story. It is difficult. It is darkish. There are human beings on this home who’re owned by an individual who has articulated common rights for everybody. And what’s so nice is that the vagueness of the phrases has allowed everyone to plow by way of and make it their very own. Not simply right here, however throughout the stuff.
So – so, when he says “pursuit of happiness,” that could be the important thing phrase. Once we say a “extra good union” within the Structure afterward, that could be the important thing phrase, that this can be a course of that we’re engaged in. And so perhaps the – the poetry, but additionally the vagueness of the phrases have opened a door which have – have – have allowed ladies to come back by way of, which have allowed enslaved folks to have citizenship, which have expanded in so many various methods. And all world wide, that that is – that is progress.
And so, I believe going again and understanding them for the deep undertow that is current, and typically actually discomforting undertow about it, is OK. It is – nothing is diminished. Do not make a Madison Avenue model of – – of – of our previous, however rejoice the grittiness. And I believe on this case, the violence of the American Revolution, we do a service to these concepts that we predict must be protected. I imply, with – this isn’t concepts which are fastened in amber, , that is – that is – that is gritty, gritty stuff. Individuals died. A number of folks died preventing for this in – in simply horrific struggles when the principle type of killing was a bayonet. That is not enjoyable.
JOHN DICKERSON: President Trump has issued an government during which he says principally historical past has gotten out of stability as of the American authorities, both funds it by way of museums or nationwide parks, and he stated as an alternative that – that this federal position in historical past ought to as an alternative “give attention to the greatness of the achievements and the progress of the American folks.”
So, President Trump thinks there’s an imbalance in the way in which we speak about historical past. How do you see that?
KEN BURNS: I do not see the imbalance. I believe we have to rejoice the greatness of the American folks. The greatness of the American folks comes from telling these compensated tales. And – and – and that is a very good story is an efficient story is an efficient story. That is what you are searching for. You do not need to simply say is, in any other case it is simply kind of slogans which are – which are put up on the wall.
We need to really feel that we all know who Thomas Jefferson is. We have to perceive the interior struggles that Abraham Lincoln had. We now have to know what was going by way of Rosa Parks’ thoughts when she, , refused to surrender her seat on the bus. This on no account take away from the glory (ph), it makes the story fuller and richer and – and permits buy for everybody. You – – you desire a – a historical past to be difficult as a result of it provides everyone an opportunity to personal or have entry to it.
JOHN DICKERSON: Variety of voice in storytelling was essential to you. That is also below assault in the mean time. The president principally is making an attempt to take away all efforts to maintain range in thoughts. Is there one thing that’s misplaced in that?
KEN BURNS: Nicely, , there is a energy within the wagon wheel of all of the totally different spokes into the hub. We’re all searching for the hub, regardless of the hub is. Which means, , one thing that pulls us collectively, that refrain. That is what we’re all about.
And in order that – the energy of that wheel has to do with having the spokes and having a large number of perspective. The impulse for some is to say there’s just one perspective. And that is true of many various issues. Typically say it is received to be solely from this attitude. It is received to be Freudian or it is received to be Marxist financial or it is received to be symbolic or it is received to be, , post-modern, or regardless of the factor is. You do not want that.
(END VT)
JIANG: We’ll be proper again with extra of John’s dialog with Ken Burns.
Stick with us.
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(BEGIN VC)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shot rings out. Nobody is aware of the place the shot got here from. That results in promiscuous taking pictures. Largely by the British. It is not a battle. It is not a skirmish. It is a bloodbath.
Now blood has been shed. Now the person in your left has been shot by way of the top. Your neighbor on the fitting has been badly wounded. You may’t put that genie again within the bottle.
(END VC)
JIANG: That is a preview of Ken Burns’ upcoming new movie “The American Revolution.”
This is extra of John Dickerson’s dialog with the documentary filmmaker.
(BEGIN VT)
JOHN DICKERSON: Going again to this concept of ongoing nourishment of historical past, a part of, return to the Revolution, to be taught who we are actually. Do you ever consider this work as an intervention?
Individuals do not re-read The Declaration each Fourth of July, as Thomas Jefferson needed. Individuals, in your telling, appear to have overpassed a few of the elements of our founding. Perhaps we do not even know them as a result of we have been advised totally different sorts of tales. Is that this an intervention?
KEN BURNS: No. Intervention imposes between the storyteller, that will be us, and the story we’re making an attempt to inform and our viewers, some kind of bigger, high-fluting objective. A superb story is an efficient story is an efficient story. And that is all we’re concerned with doing.
The Fourth of July is my favourite vacation since you sit there on a blanket, on a subject, taking a look at these fireworks with all of those different folks at nighttime and also you share with them in widespread that we comply with principally a sentence in a – in a – in a doc, written, , by a Virginian who lived right here, , 249 years in the past. That is actually highly effective stuff.
So, the truth that it may be misinterpreted by some, that is all the time going to be the case. Manipulated by others, it will all the time be the case. Type of, , genuinely embraced however for the incorrect causes, it will all the time be the case. However we nonetheless, we all know. We perceive that we maintain these truths to be self-evident, although they weren’t, that every one males are created equal, that they’re endowed by their creator with sure unalienable rights that amongst these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It does not get any higher of that.
JOHN DICKERSON: You have advised numerous your tales on PBS. PBS is below risk.
KEN BURNS: All off them. All of them. All of them (INAUDIBLE).
JOHN DICKERSON: Are you apprehensive about the way forward for PBS?
KEN BURNS: After all I’m. And I’ve all the time been apprehensive about it. Within the Nineties, I believe I testified within the Home or the Senate, in appropriations or authorization in regards to the endowments are in regards to the Company for Public Broadcasting a half dozen occasions.
JOHN DICKERSON: Make the case for PBS.
KEN BURNS: It’s the Declaration of Independence utilized to the communications world. It is a backside up. It is the biggest community within the nation. There’s 330 stations. It largely serves, and that is the place the elimination of funding for the Company for Public Broadcasting is so shortsighted, it primarily serves rural areas during which the PBS sign will be the solely they get. Additionally they haven’t solely our good youngsters’s and primetime stuff, they’ve Classroom of the Air persevering with schooling, homeland safety, crop experiences, climate, emergency data. That we will take away? This appears foolhardy and appears misguided, primarily as a result of there’s a notion amongst a handful of those who that is one way or the other a blue or a left wing factor when that is the place that for 32 years gave William F. Buckley a present. And it is – I imply it is – and it is – – that present is, by the way in which, remains to be occurring and moderated by a conservative.
So, I simply suppose that perhaps we’re throwing the newborn out with the bathwater. And I could not do – let me personalize it. And I did not need to. John, I could not do any of the movies I’ve completed with out them being on PBS. I – I might go right into a streaming service or a premium cable tomorrow and get each one of many hundreds of thousands of {dollars} it took to do that in a single pitch. However they would not give me ten years. They need it in a yr or a yr and a half. And that is – I can not try this. Identical with Vietnam. Identical with the Civil Battle. Identical with jazz. Identical with the nationwide parks. Identical with, , the Roosevelts. All these – nation music. All of these have taken time to incubate. And that has been below the system that has one foot tentatively within the market and the opposite proudly out. Type of just like the nationwide parks, or the Declaration of Independence, utilized to the panorama.
These are actually good, American establishments that symbolize everyone from the underside up, which is what it is all the time about. That is the essence of what Thomas Jefferson was speaking about.
JOHN DICKERSON: As somebody who labored so laborious on telling the story of slavery and enslaved folks in numerous other ways, what did you find out about slavery in America from engaged on this?
KEN BURNS: It is so difficult and so fascinating. I – I believe the factor that was most hanging that is come to me is that it was actually clear that our founders, even these founders who owned different human beings, knew that the establishment of slavery was indefensible. It is solely later within the nineteenth century that you will kind of make – you attempt to make excuses for why it is OK. And that they are actually wrestling with methods. However there are human beings which are owned by different human beings. It’s totally, very difficult. And you may by no means say a categorical them about anyone. And that is all we do.
Look, I’ve – I’ve made movies in regards to the U.S. for all of my skilled life. However I’ve additionally made movies concurrently about us. All the intimacy of that and all of the majesty and complexity and contradiction and controversy of the U.S. And the factor I’ve discovered, if I’ve discovered something, is that there is solely “us.” There’s isn’t any “them.” And we’re consistently being advised there is a them. There isn’t any them.
JOHN DICKERSON: If there’s solely “us,” and no “them,” it is usually a pressure in American historical past, take a look at them, go get them.
KEN BURNS: That is proper. It is the best factor. It is the authoritarians’ playbook.
JOHN DICKERSON: There’s numerous speak about “them” as of late. Are you hoping to pierce that with this telling of America’s starting?
KEN BURNS: I – I haven’t got a acutely aware want to do that. This suggests a sort of agenda, a sort of a political agenda.
We consciously perceive, as we’re engaged on a movie, what number of – how a lot is rhyming within the current and it adjustments just a little bit and adjustments that. However we do not ever attempt to put neon indicators going, look how a lot that is a lot like in the present day. We simply need to let that resonate. And also you go, oh my goodness, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, they might have wigs and so they could have breaches. They’re very very similar to us.
JOHN DICKERSON: As a result of in case you put an excessive amount of of a thumb on the size, you smash the story and you then kill the facility of the story.
KEN BURNS: That is precisely proper. You need to let it inform the story. Our job is to be a very good storyteller, interval, full cease, finish of sentence.
JOHN DICKERSON: Which suggests telling a narrative nicely sufficient that any individual would possibly take a conclusion that is completely totally different than the one –
KEN BURNS: Oh, completely. You – I – , I keep in mind watching this and going, oh, my God, there’s – there’s truly locations for all totally different varieties of individuals to search out buy. You already know, this can be a huge – a very good story is an enormous home with a lot of totally different doorways. And we are likely to undergo the entrance door and suppose that is it. Anyone could also be coming within the aspect door. Anyone could also be coming – climbing up and – and breaking in from the second story. Nonetheless you get in, you are in. And that is all you need is the – it – , tales are invites. Like, honey, how was your day, proper? It does not start, I backed slowly down the driveway, avoiding the rubbish can on the curb. You – you simply edit human expertise and that is what we spent the final ten years doing. We have been saying, this story of the American founding, our – our creation fable, is as essential a narrative to get proper as something. And we have spent ten years making an attempt to get it proper.
JOHN DICKERSON: What’s the distinction between the Revolutionary Battle and the American Revolution?
KEN BURNS: Benjamin Rush, who’s the nice doctor of the time, one of many signors of The Declaration, stated that when it was over, that the – the American battle is over, however the American revolution is happening. I believe in case you settle for the concept of pursuit of happiness, in case you settle for the concept of a “extra good union,” you understand, as we do in our personal lives and our personal work, in our personal relationships, that it is about course of. That we’re engaged in an ongoing want to attain this stuff. This perfection is what you need to tilt for. It is unattainable, clearly. However in case you’re not engaged within the energetic pursuit of perfection, self, relationship, group, nation, world, you then’re stopped. You are static. And you are not going ahead. And I believe there’s not an American that doesn’t need to go ahead.
(END VT)
JIANG: John’s full interview with Ken Burns is posted on our YouTube channel and our net web page. You can even take heed to the on the FACE THE NATION podcast platform.
We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
JIANG: Nicely, that is it for us in the present day. Thanks for watching. Margaret might be again subsequent week. FOR FACE THE NATION, I am Weijia Jiang.
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