Transcript: Sue Gordon and Frank McKenzie on

The next is the transcript of an interview with Sue Gordon, Principal Deputy Director of Nationwide Intelligence in first Trump administration, and Ret. Gen. Frank McKenzie, a CBS Information contributor, that aired on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” on March 30, 2025.

MAJOR GARRETT: I wish to return to the state of affairs surrounding the administration and the officers use of Sign, a messaging app to debate navy assault plans. In our new CBS Information poll- let’s examine three quarters of People say that this was, to them a critical matter matter. A complete of 76% of People additionally mentioned the usage of the app to debate navy plans was to their mind-set, not applicable, and that included eight in 10 independents and greater than half of Republicans surveyed. We flip now to Sue Gordon, who served as Principal Deputy Director of Nationwide Intelligence through the first Trump administration. She is in Austin. And retired Marine Corps Basic Frank McKenzie, former head of US Central Command. This marks his first official look as a CBS Information contributor, and he joins us from Tampa, Florida. Good morning to you each. Sue, I wish to begin with you. Simply break this down for our viewers. How a lot of this falls into something that you’d, by way of your profession, perceive to be acceptable communications about delicate or labeled info?

SUE GORDON: Effectively, good morning, Main. Simply high line with out entering into classification guides. There may be nothing concerning the info that has to do with operations that’s applicable for this communications channel- none. And- and there are different communications channels which are obtainable for such a factor, and the danger of loss that comes with uncontrolled communications is profound. So I do not assume we have to argue at any degree, whether or not it was applicable for this path. Now we are able to speak about how that occurred. We will speak about what they may have executed, and we are able to speak about what we do subsequent. However on the highest line, this is not what you focus on in these channels. 

MAJOR GARRETT: So when the administration, Sue, says, however nothing unhealthy occurred. No one obtained to it, so don’t fret about it. How do you react to that?

SUE GORDON: One, I am glad the operation was successful- yay. However we’ve a saying that claims that each success is a failure, the place one thing went proper. And I do not assume we must always relaxation on the truth that nothing unhealthy occurred this time. We do not know whether or not that communications path has been penetrated. So we do not know whether or not state actors which have a number of sources are simply sitting and lurking now realizing that we do necessary issues on that. Definitely the knowledge that has now come out for any intelligence officer- and I can communicate of this with nice experience, that is all tremendous helpful for the subsequent time, or for understanding the sources, or understanding how we did the focusing on, or understanding how we function, or what our operational tempo is. So all of that info is efficacious. So I am glad the operation was profitable. Now we have to take care of the truth that this could not have occurred. There may be consequence when it does, and you may’t make sure that there isn’t a persistent danger that follows it.

MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, this story has forests and bushes. I do not wish to lose the forest. The larger situation here’s a new tempo, an elevated tempo of navy operations- a few of them day in, day in, day in, day-in-out towards the Houthis in Yemen. Consider that and its significance in understanding the broader context of this story.

GENERAL FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.) : Certain, Main. And to begin with, it is nice to be with you right here right now. I feel the bigger story right here is definitely that we’ve lastly begun to strike the Houthis laborious. There’s an outdated Neil Younger song- I am going to elevate the road from it, ought to have been executed way back. Effectively, now we’re starting to do it, and we’re starting to strike successfully at a tempo, a scope and a tempo that frankly, eluded the final information- the final administration. And I’d argue that we’re doing it as a result of for the primary time, we’ve the political will to make use of applicable navy functionality towards the Houthis. And we wish one in all two issues from the Houthis. We wish them both to be deterred from attacking ships that move by way of the Bab-el-Mandeb, which actually means the Suez Canal. That is one situation. The opposite situation can be, in the event that they received’t- if they will not cease, we wish to take away their functionality to do it. The second job can be more durable. It’s inside {our capability}. It won’t be a brief motion. It will not be what would name a single interval of darkness. These assaults should proceed. They could develop in scope and scale. They’re definitely not countless in time. And we need- we’d like to- we have to repair the issue and transfer on to different issues. I feel the truth that we’ve a second plane provider that is shifting to CENTCOM is definitely an indication that this administration may be very critical about this requirement. The actual fact we’re shifting B-2s into the area equally indicators that. However I imagine once more, for the primary time, we’re coupling real political will to behave together with navy functionality. So it is a unique- it is a distinctive second within the theater, and I am glad to see that this administration is greedy that chance. 

MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, the terminology you simply used, deter and degrade, can that be executed from a distance, which means aerial and from ship borne armaments? 

GEN. MCKENZIE: So, I feel we are able to do an excellent job of that. I would not take something off the desk. Once more, whenever you take issues off the desk, it tends to provide help and luxury to the enemy. We have executed an excessive amount of of that. I feel we must always go away all the things on the desk and I’d additionally go away on the desk, actions against- towards Tehran itself. All paths on this matter lead again to Tehran, and we have to know and perceive that. They’re the principal provider for the Houthis and proper now, Iran is discovering it handy to again pedal and to say that shut relationship. However in actual fact, the Houthis exist due to Iranian assist, and now, to a lesser diploma due to Russian assist, and we have to acknowledge that, and we should not give Iran a free experience on this. And I feel we’ve the potential, really, proper now, in Iran’s weakened state, to threaten them very strongly. And I am going to simply say yet another factor as I shut out on this, Main, the primary Trump Administration did three issues that put them in a novel place proper now within the area. Primary, that administration struck and killed Qassem Soleimani, that is forgotten in the USA, that is not forgotten in Iran. It displayed American will at a degree that has usually been absent within the area. Second factor is the signing of the Abraham Accords, which gave Israel the chance to enter the area diplomatically, economically and to a level culturally. It’ll be a tough street, however I feel that is solely going to broaden and final, the motion of Israel from the European Command into the Central Command has really enabled the very profitable protection of Israel that we have seen over the previous couple of weeks and months, and is a big step ahead. All of those taken collectively give this administration a novel alternative proper now and within the months forward to form occasions within the area.

MAJOR GARRETT: Sue, I wish to return to you, as a result of Senator Warner on this program just some moments in the past mentioned he is involved that these within the 5 Eyes group, which means our high intelligence sharing allies, will take a look at the state of affairs – whether or not it is prosecuted or not, they do not care – as careless as reckless, and so they could be legitimately inspired, due to this fact, to drag again. Working within the Trump administration the primary time round, you labored with our companions there, you already know what their sentiments are. Do you share these issues?

[CROSSTALK]

GEN. MCKENZIE: They could categorical these issues. I’d argue–

GORDON: I feel–

MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, that is for Sue. Frank, that is for Sue.

GEN. MCKENZIE: I am sorry, I am sorry. I am sorry. Sue, please go forward.

GORDON: Effectively, Basic, something it’s a must to say is worth it, however let me- let me- let me take a run at this. Hear, we depend on our allies and companions, and defending their equities and pursuits and their sources of knowledge is admittedly necessary. I- there have been, traditionally, errors up to now. It isn’t restricted to this one the place you discover that- that one associate or one other has been unable to guard a associate’s info. I feel what’s troublesome about this one is 2 issues that the administration does want to handle. One is, you actually do have to tighten down on the way you talk, as a result of my suspicion is that they have been simply doing one thing expedient, and I want somebody on the decision had mentioned, maintain on, if we’ll go down this path, we have to go to a unique channel. However the second factor is the best way we’re reacting to it after we counsel that there was nothing to see right here. I feel that is really the factor that extra must be addressed with our companions and allies, to say, yeah, we perceive that this was not what we must always or would have most well-liked to do, and so to rebuild belief that method. So it is not that there is not error. The problem is, are you doing issues that encourage confidence? And I feel that we all know that, simply from an environmental perspective, {our relationships} with our allies and companions are a little bit bit tenuous at greatest, so creating one thing that causes them to wonder if we’re reliable, once more, to me, has a huge effect on our capability to advance the issues that we wish to do.

MAJOR GARRETT: Frank, you are a CBS contributor, I will offer you a one minute time warning on this. Shut out along with your ideas about this situation with the Sign chat.

GEN. MCKENZIE: So I feel Sue was spot on in her- in her evaluation, I’d merely argue that I imagine the USA stays the indispensable nation in quite a lot of locations. And I feel I am certain we’ll be taught from this. I want to assume that it will not be repeated, however I feel once more, it is unlucky that the Sign chat has actually kind of obscured the excellent, very actual work that is been executed in lastly addressing an issue that is dragged on far too lengthy, which is Houthi motion within the Bab-al-Mandab to shut the- successfully closed the Suez Canal.

MAJOR GARRETT: And actual fast, Frank, whenever you checked out this, did it shock you? I imply, like, what? You are speaking about that there?

GEN. MCKENZIE: I used to be shocked.

MAJOR GARRETT: That is it. You are studying the entire TV factor. Frank Mackenzie and Sue Gordon, thanks very, very a lot. I recognize it on your time, your experience and pulling this all out for the viewers. Thanks a lot. We’ll be proper again.